Author Elaine Hsieh Chou on the Healing Power of Mocking Shitty White Dudes

What do yellowface, academia, waffle dogs and Japanese schoolgirls have in common? They all appear in Disorientation, a rollicking campus farce written by Taiwanese American writer and debut novelist Elaine Hsieh Chou. Released in March, the book follows Ingrid Yang, 29, a PhD student writing her dissertation about lauded Chinese American poet Xiao-Wen Chou. A startling discovery throws everything (and everyone) she knows into question, including her loving and supportive fiancé Stephen, her overbearing advisor Michael, her intimidating and brilliant nemesis Vivian and the nature of racial identity itself.

In delightful news, Chou’s creation will soon be making an appearance on the big screen—she just announced an adaptation co-produced by Malala Yousafzai’s production company Extracurricular and Adam McKay’s company Hyperobject Industries.

As a former English major, I was dying to read Disorientation. In a video chat with Chou, we talked about dating on the apps as an Asian woman, soft boys versus fuck boys, and the healing power of making fun of shitty white dudes.

Do you remember how the novel came to be—what was the inspiration?

I wanted to write this novel set at a university that follows a professor named Ingrid, but she's older—she's in her 50s and she's married. Two of her students get involved in a sexual assault case and she starts to revisit her experiences and feelings about dating white men. That was my original idea. And then I read about the collective trauma of 2015 for Asian Americans—when Michael Derrick Hudson pretended to be Yi-Fen Chou to get his terrible poem published and then outed himself. I was so shocked and angry about what happened—especially because my last name is Chou. I was like, “Excuse me. Wrong on multiple levels, but my last name?”

I didn't sit down thinking, I'm going to write this comical, humorous novel. But that was just what came out because I couldn't engage with such heavy topics in any other way.

How did it feel writing satire?

I didn't sit down thinking, I'm going to write this comical, humorous novel. But that was just what came out because I couldn't engage with such heavy topics in any other way. When I could make myself laugh, the process was fun for me. Not that writing a novel is fun and giggling all the time—it's hard and painful. But the moments where I could look forward to going back to the story and trying to make myself laugh, that was why that voice emerged. When you have a lot of anger towards a subject or someone like Stephen or Michael or John, that anger—when it's so intense—it emerges as satire.

Which character was the most fun to write?

I love Eunice [Ingrid’s best friend]. I think she brings a lot of lightness to the book. When I talk to readers, the person they want to hang out with the most is Eunice. I loved writing Vivian [Ingrid’s nemesis], too. And then there's a sick joy in getting to make fun of guys like Michael [her advisor] and Stephen [her fiancé]. But that wasn't always fun because I had to inhabit their way of thinking and push myself really hard to go all the way. My instinct is to be like, “I believe everything you say is ridiculous. And I don't want to listen to you.” But to make them as evil and convincing as possible, I had to force myself to think: What do they believe is their strongest argument?

The soft boy versus the fuck boy is way more lethal and toxic. They've figured out the language of how we describe manipulators and abusers, and then they take that and use it to appear like a sheep. But then they're obviously a wolf.

Stephen was my favorite character—not in a good way, but in a bad way. He was the funniest character to me.

Tell me more.

How he thinks he's a male feminist.

Yeah, I've heard from people that he's the most terrifying character.

Really?

But like what you're talking about—it's two sides of the same coin. He's terrifying in how harmless he seems and how he weaponizes that. Obviously, John we condemn right away, based on what we find out about him. Michael always has that creepy vibe. But with Stephen, I wanted to try to trick the reader to be like, “He is the one stable, good thing in Ingrid's life, and she's clinging on to him so dearly.” I wanted it to sneak up on them. Other people were like, “Oh, it's so obvious what he is from the very beginning.”

Yeah, I could see how he could be terrifying. He does everything right, in a way, and has all these markers of being a good man.

Yeah, he packages himself in a feminist, harmless way. But then—this is what I've been hearing from people who are in the online dating world—the soft boy versus the fuck boy is way more lethal and toxic. They've figured out the language of how we describe manipulators and abusers, and then they take that and use it to appear like a sheep. But then they're obviously a wolf.

With Stephen’s character, I was like, “How can I show abuse in a way that we are really not used to seeing it?” Those types of guys are dangerous—because Stephen’s not physically abusive—and Ingrid went through that with the medical resident [an ex-boyfriend]. I wanted the reader to not even be looking for those signs. If you go back and read, you can pick up on how he's always telling her to wear this, to eat this—in the very, very beginning he already does that, but it's presented as, “He's so caring.”

It does feel weird dating as an Asian woman where you sometimes have this moment of, “Oh, wait, this person doesn't actually see me as a real human being.” But it always catches you off guard, even though I feel like I know—

Yeah, because we think we’re human. That's why it catches us off guard. Because we move in the world believing we're three-dimensional humans. And then you meet someone and you realize, oh, they see you as a type or an image or idea or fantasy—and you're like, “Oh, here I was thinking I was a real boy. But I'm a cartoon to these people.”

And when it happens, like in the book where you've been in a long-term relationship with someone, you’re like, “Oh, shit.” It’s so shocking.

That's the other thing: it's scarier when they hide it. It’s better if on the first date they just say some terrible racist thing, because then you're like, “I will now block and run the other direction.”

Fetishization of any gender is so dehumanizing and painful and straight up racist...we need to be committed to each other's liberation. And liberation is not people wanting to fuck us because we represent some sort of fantasy.

When I post on social media about my own dating experiences, white people feel very threatened if I say anything negative about white men. And then with MRAsians [Men’s Rights Asians]—it seems taboo to talk about it—it's fine if you experience it, but don't complain.

You can’t win. I think that's the thing. White men with an Asian fetish, obviously, will become very defensive and angry and like Stephen, they have all these excuses in their back pocket. “Some people like redheads”—I can't tell you how many Asian women I've met, they're like, “I've heard that exact same fucking line about redheads and Italians.” They really have a handbook: Say these lines to get out of jail.

And then there's a lot of pain and misunderstanding within our community because the fetishization of Asian women has gone hand-in-hand with the emasculation of Asian men. Although the fetishization of Asian men is definitely ramping up with K-pop and K-dramas—fetishization of any gender is so dehumanizing and painful and straight up racist. But in this subset of the MRAsian community, it's like, “Oh, that's a compliment. Why are you complaining? At least you're getting laid.” Like, oh Jesus, this is not it—we need to be committed to each other's liberation. And liberation is not people wanting to fuck us because we represent some sort of fantasy.

Do you think more people are being exposed for pretending to be a different race?

I think it's increasing for sure. My theory is that white people are afraid of the great replacement and that other people being given equality is somehow taking away from their God-given, inherent rights—if you are white, you're not going to get as far as you could. And this is statistically blatantly false. If you look at any sector—it could be tech, it could be the art industry, writing movies—white people are still the ones in power.

A lot of people have been outed recently because they wanted to claim expertise about a certain ethnicity. There's this anxiety of quote unquote authenticity or “I feel I don't have a right to study this or claim expertise.” And my instinct is, well, don't fucking do it then. Between the option of you could just stop or you could adopt another race, to me the easier and ethical choice is not to be like, “Well, the only solution is to pretend I'm Black and spray tan myself and get a perm every six months, Rachel Dolezal-style.”

And the idea that it's so easy to pass.

That's what I wanted to show with Xiao-Wen Chou. Even though he did con a lot of people, once the truth is out there, people came forward with all their suspicions that had been brewing for a long time. I remember when I was reading about some of these professors being outed, like Jessica Krug, people would write in saying, “Yeah, she said this thing to me one time and I knew something was wrong with her.” 

You can't fake something that you have already exoticized. You can't become what you have already othered. So these white people are always gonna get caught. What's funny is they keep trying—they keep thinking, “I'll be the one white person that gets away with this.” It's like, no, your whiteness will out you. Whiteness is so undeniable that it will always out you.

Thinking of yourself as this blank slate where you can take on any identity that you choose.

That idea is white. Why don't we have tons of POC doing this racial farce? Because none of us believe in or were raised with this idea of ownership and “I'm exceptional and I have a right to do and be whatever I want, to get whatever I want.” We don't have those beliefs or ideas. So of course we're not doing these shenanigans.

That idea is white. Why don't we have tons of POC doing this racial farce?...We don't have those beliefs or ideas. So of course we're not doing these shenanigans.

At the end of the book [mild spoiler], you could say that justice is not done. When did you know that it was going to end that way?

That part I knew right away. I knew I had to give Ingrid her moment of being empowered, having agency and taking back what's hers on that stage—which was so enjoyable and cathartic for me to write. But then I knew afterward, nothing would really change because suddenly you'd be reading a fantasy novel.

We're so far from our dehumanization and pain being taken seriously. Every day, the humanity of Asians is seen as second to a joke, a punchline or a headline. I can't imagine the justice that would happen because this world has never presented that to me. I knew though, that that is painful to read, so I wanted to show Ingrid growing and finding happiness regardless. In the epilogue, we see that she is growing and moving forward. But what happens to the perpetrators—that could have only gone one way. My fingers couldn't even type out the opposite—them being held accountable.

Every day, the humanity of Asians is seen as second to a joke, a punchline or a headline. I can't imagine the justice that would happen because this world has never presented that to me.

I wasn't surprised by the ending, but part of me wondered if people who are white might have been shocked. Because in their mind, they're like, how could this happen?

All you have to do is look at the news. We live in a country where you can literally get away with murder as long as you have a badge. Writing this book during the Trump presidency—I even hate to say that word because it was a circus—over and over and over again, you would see things that were wrong or unethical or unjust. But nothing would happen. So you would constantly feel like you were in an alternate universe where right and wrong didn't exist anymore. You know that you are in your right mind, but that's how warped white supremacy is—it’s constantly gaslighting you to such a degree that it's even in the law. And so is justice just an idea? Does it not exist? Am I losing my mind?

It has been very frustrating for a lot of us. A lot of people check out. I was much more into activism and organizing, but I burned out because you feel such frustration and despair when nothing changes. I'm not saying, “Oh, let's all just give up.” But it’s similar to Vivian—she has burnout because the weight of justice is so heavy on her shoulders. We don't talk enough about what it can do to you mentally to fight so hard and never see justice on the other side of it.

Maybe satire is a way to reclaim your sanity in a way, because the same thing that makes [white supremacy] so toxic is the same thing that makes it funny—it doesn't make any sense.

I love that. If we can't have justice in the real world, but we get to laugh at them, that in itself is hopefully a form of healing. When you're safe in your room and able to laugh at someone like Stephen or Michael, maybe that’s just a little sprinkle of what justice could feel like. Because you have no power over me. And I have made you ridiculous.

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.